pleonast.com: sobern90


prov3110	Very cool!
71lespaulcustom	8D
xray342	Could not access volume "SELF-RIGHTEOUS WORKS". Abort, Retry, Fail?
bryanboyd	yeah, i know what you mean. i didn't particularly enjoy seeing pitt beat south florida on thursday night.
	login to comment

hide comments

Praise Teams / Women Song Leaders

09-22-08 06:33pm MST

Where in the New Testament does it state specifically the order of “the worship assembly” that includes congregational singing over all other forms of singing that God put into place? Book, Chapter and verse please.

The New Testament does not “authorize” any “specific” form of singing in the formal “assembly” and all references to singing in the New Testament after the church was established in Acts chapter two are directed to individuals and not a collective group according to context of scripture. So how can we say for sure that any from of singing we chose to do (traditional congregational or not) is pleasing to God?

In Rom. 15:9, 1 Cor. 14:15 and 1 Cor 14:26, Heb 2:12, Jas. 5:13, Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 are all directed to individuals and not the collective assembly. The command to sing is a daily worship to God directed to individuals and not to the “worship assembly.”

The theme of 1 Cor. 14 is the orderly assembly but the context of verse 15 and verse 26 are still directed to individuals.

Also in 1 Cor. 14:26 the Greek word "each" or "each of you" is not gender specific to males only but is directed to all in the assembly which would also include females. So Paul is saying that "each" male and "each" female is to bring a Psalm with them to the assembly.

1 Cor. 14:26 “When you come together” is the assembly which is followed by “each” or “each one” which is singular (individual) in context. Meaning that each person (individual) that comes to the assembly should come with a psalm etc…

Each means just that ... each as in one person.

Vines = Ekaotos = each one = each or every = separately = it is used with stress on the individuality.

Strongs = 1538 = Ekaotos (hekastos) a prim. Word: each = each one, each person, personal.

Thayer’s = 1538 = Ekaotos = each = denotes individuality, every one of many.

It is tradition of the earthly church that we sing on Sunday in the formal worship assembly and again on any mid week assembly.

There is “NO” command or example in the New Testament for congregational assembly singing being authorized as a form a collective worship to God.

We do it because of our tradition to do it and not from any Biblical authority.

Does this make what we do is right or wrong? No !

Does it mean that Praise Teams are right or wrong? No !

But it is wrong to say that the tradition of the church to have congregational assembly singing is the only way that singing can be done in the church when there is no Biblical authority in the first place.


	(4 older comments)
patermagister	First, Guy, it seems to me that you contradict yourself in your post. You claim there is no case of authority for singing in the context of the congregational assembly. Yet you then quote I Corinthians 14 and point out the discussion is about what to do in the assembly. The fact that the words about sing are to individuals within the assembly doesn't change that he is directing what goes on in the assembly. Further, I do not believe your point about I Corinthians 14:26 is correct. The statement that "each one has a hymn" (ESV) is not saying that every member of the congregation came with a psalm they sang individually. Anymore than when it said "each one has ...a revelation," "each one has ... a lesson," "each one has...a tongue," "each one has...an interpretation," was saying that every member also came with a tongue, interpretation, revelation or lesson. After all, Paul has already established in I Corinthians 12:28-30 demonstrates that all did not have revelations, tongues or the ability to interpret. Therefore, I Corinthians 14:26 is not saying that everyone came in with a psalm that they were going to individually sing. Rather, in the context of miraculous gifts, some received a psalm by miraculous gift of the Holy Spirit just as some received a lesson, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation by the miraculous gift of the Holy Spirit. When they brought that to the assembly, they were to present it in a way that was edifying instead of self-serving. What is not present in this text is someone standing before the congregation singing a popular hymn of the day. Rather, someone teaching the congregation a psalm they received by miraculous gift of the spirit. At the very most, if we wanted to try to transfer this to a modern parallel in a time when we do not use miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit, we might have someone who has written a new song teaching it to the congregation.
patermagister	Regarding the instrument, the fact that singing is universally specified throughout the New Testament as it talks about praising God and edifying one another rules out other forms of music.
patermagister	Further, I'm not sure there is anyone who says the only way Christians are allowed to sing is in the assembly.
sobern90	I am not addressing intruments in this post.
sobern90	Edwin I am taking about authority to use traditional congregational style singing as we do today. I do not see 1 Cor. 14 as being the same style of singing as our traditional congregational singing of today.
sobern90	Edwin my point about 1 Cor. 14:26 is that the Greek word (each) or (each one) is not gender specific but gender neutral meaning both men and women. Paul is in fact implying that men and women were given the gift of psalms to bring to the assembly. Not just men.
sobern90	Also this NEW position of “Leadership” called a “song leader” is a man made position and not a God authorized position of assembly. Maybe God never intended for there to be a position of one person leading songs in the assembly in the first place and that is why the Bible is silent on the topic. So if the Bible is silent on the position of “Song Leader” how then can a woman usurp the non-God approved authority of a man by starting a song as would be indicated by 1 Cor. 14:26?
sobern90	On church of Christ singles site I was told that "God's authorized plan for the worship assembly only approved congergattional singing" and that got me looking into this topic in the first place. I also have not found this "God authorized plan for the worship assembly" yet and that might be for another topic later.
71lespaulcustom	Odd that "singing to one another" means everyone must be singing simultaneously to one another, but other one another passages are understood to mean that individuals do it as needed to others (forgive, confess, etc).
spoons	I would say be careful on your definition and usage of "each" because in I Corinthians 16:1 where it says "On the first day of every week, EACH ONE OF YOU should put aside money as you have been blessed..." I could not do this. I have no job. I have no money. My husband and I give together but if we EACH must give, I could not participate. If I don't have anything to give, maybe I'm not required to give as I have not prospered but whether this is a command or an honor for me to do...I could not act on this verse.
spoons	I think the idea of A song leader comes under the topic of doing things in an orderly manner (I Cor. 14:40). I don’t think it’s necessary for a Bass person to lead the Bass people…or a Tenor person to lead the Tenor people…or an Alto person to lead the Alto people nor a Soprano person to lead the Soprano people. I think it makes more sense for one person to stand up and “call us to order” so we all start at the same time and all sing the same verses, all sing at the same speed, etc. so that it comes out pleasant for ourselves to hear as well as God. Of course someone could sit in the pews and say “Ready, Set, Sing” and we all start together or someone could do the Lawrence Welk thing…“Ah One, and a Two, and a Three” but that seems more distracting from the purpose of singing in the beginning.
spoons	I myself am not a singer at all. I have no vocal talent. I am a “backup singer” the further back I sit, the better I sound”. I’m not a baritone, I’m an “awful-tone”. But I do the best I can. If I had my way, we’d not sing at all. The day I don’t have to sing will be a good day for me. I’m not comfortable doing it. I’m self-conscious doing it. I don’t like doing it. I don’t even like listening to it.
truthme	Seems odd to me- When we get together to sing at my home we have no song leader, and even with 20-30 people it turns out fine. I believe when we choose to pick ONE song leader, (even though we have no scriptural example) because we want to do things decently, that is perfectly OK. The problem comes when we start telling OTHERS that they can not use a group of a few people (one from each part) to achieve the purpose of doing things decently. Under what grounds can we say that our ONE PERSON leadership is OK, but a NO person leadership, or a SIX person leadership is not acceptable?
arsenal	As the "heretic" in the group I believe the "pattern" for the five "mandatory" acts of worship is church doctrine. WE have no CENI that every congregation sang altogether every time they met. If we go by Acts 20 only two acts were performed, preaching and the Lord's Supper. Yes I know the argument just because it doesn't say it doesn't mean they didn't do it. Paul said "sing". He didn't say when to or how many would at one time. When he said "one has a psalm" I beleive ONE sang that psalm.
arsenal	As for praise teams. Even though we have "quasi" praise teams such as when a songleader leads a new song that only a few know, they sing at least the first verse until the rest of the congregation catches on, I see the danger of allowing the praise team to do all the singing. Much like hiring one man to do ALL the preaching.
patermagister	I will add Matthew 26:20 which is a demonstration of group singing. I recognize it is not a local congregation. However, it does set the stage for interpreting how we can interpret Paul's statement about singing within the congregational assembly in I Corinthians 14:15. Also, the fact that women might have miraculously received psalms is not an issue any more than knowing that women were also prophets. I don't know exactly how these gifts were administered or how female prophets were able to make known their prophecies within the context of the assembly. I do know this, I Timothy 2:12 says women were not permitted to teach or exercise authority over the men. Whatever exceptions might have been made for women with miraculous gifts of the Spirit, I'm not exactly sure how we are going to apply that today.
patermagister	I do not have a problem with multi-person leadership. I've seen it done and participated in it. Where one selects someone to essentially lead each part. However, as always happens, some particular person has to actually get things going. Which is why I have said before and will say again, you have never sung a song in a group without someone leading. You may have done so without someone waving their arms, but you have never done so without someone leading the song. Singing doesn't just start on its own. Someone picked a song. Someone started the song. They set the pitch of the song and the tempo. The point is, every song gets picked and started by someone. That someone is the one leading the song.
patermagister	I do have a problem with setting apart some people as the "praise team" as if we have a special group that praises God. I do have a scriptural problem with allowing the sisters to have authority or leadership even in this (cf. I Timothy 2:12).
sobern90	My issue is not about Praise Teams. I do not sing with them and have no desire to. My point is about binding things that are not commanded as being commanded just because that is what we have always done. The Bible does not “command five acts of worship” in the assembly. In the assembly we have examples of preaching, Lord’s Supper, taking up a special collection for a specific need, and inspiring fellowship of each other. That is all the New Testament indicates to us that took place in the assembly of the Saints during the New Testament church. In the New Testament church there are NO commands for or examples of singing in the assembly. Yet we say one way is right and bind it and say another is wrong and condemn it when the truth of the matter is we have no real authority for any modern style. By the way, under the concept of a Praise Team; the women lead the women and the men lead the men. Women do not lead men. Male base and tenor lead males. Female alto and soprano lead females.
truthme	The way I've seen successful praise teams, they do not even do that. There is ONE MALE song leader up front leading, and then individual people singing their parts into a microphone while seated. The only difference between a praise team member and anyone else is the microphone... and even those sitting near the praise team member are somewhat picked up by that microphone. I agree with you to say that this somehow is an authority issue is just more of the same petty devisiveness that we all too often see in our congregations.
patermagister	Guy, I'm really confused here. How can you admit that I Corinthians 14 was written about the assembly and then say there is no example of singing in the assembly? The fact that Paul then went on to instruct how individuals acted in the assembly doesn't mean it is no longer the assembly. I'm no longer a big champion of the "five acts of worship" myself, but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. I Corinthians 14 demonstrates singing was very much part of the assembly. Otherwise, Paul would have no need to speak about singing in Spirit and understanding. You do make an interesting point about the soprano and alto issues. Perhaps I'm just bucking against this because of traditionalism. That's hard to tell when it is the case isn't it. However, I have two issues that immediately come to mind. First, as the soprano is usually the lead of the entire song, I'm not sure this claim of only leading women actually is valid. Second, (his point might deal with this), to have a group standing up before the audience as leaders gives me great pause to say that two of them are leading a particular group in the assembly, while the other two are leading a different group. I guess there are three issues, and this is more a slippery slope argument, but I guess I'm wondering at what point we allow the sister to address the congregation but say her message was really only for the women so she wasn't leading men?
arsenal	This begs the question: Is it wrong to sing songs with female leads? As a songleader I will often remain silent during these parts.
71lespaulcustom	Isn't it obvious that women cannot lead? Singing is speaking to one another, and women are to keep silent. Seems like they must be sinning to be singing at all.
truthme	Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord Women also TEACH men (and others) by singing.... So I agree, they must stop singing. They need to stay quiet and make me more yummies at fellowship meals. (but not at the building.... or they will go to hell for it)
xray342	Now why can't I think of a controversial, thought-provoking question to get dozens upon dozens of responses to it? :-) Anyway Guy, keep thinking outside the box and kicking the tires of tradition.
	login to comment

hide comments

Just a note

09-12-08 12:50pm MST

I am waiting for the University of Southern Cal to be crowned King of college football tomorrow.


kevin	Might as well go ahead and punch their ticket to Miami...
prov3110	Yeah yeah yeah ... whatever. Gators can chomp them just as easily as they did Ohio State. :P
arsenal	Don't think I'd be wearing an SC t-shirt in Gainesville or Tuscaloosa.
arsenal	You WIN! There will be at least one sad face in our congregation this morning.
xray342	worst weekend ever
xray342	I just got power back from having the remnants of hurricane Ike take down 90% of the power in the area! Combine that with the financial market mess and the Bengals... OY!!!
arsenal	You win twice in one weekend.
	login to comment

hide comments

A Question Concerning 1 John 1:7

09-01-08 01:33pm MST

I have been a Christian for almost three years now. (October 14th will be three years) I have observed a lot of my brother’s and sister’s up close and from a far. I have read what they write in blogs, forum threads, and books. I have heard what they speak privately and in public. I have a question concerning a passage of scripture which was talked about in Bible class this past Sunday morning.

1John 1:7 “but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.”

What does this passage of scripture look like in the daily life of a Christian?

I have my idea but I also think that most Christians have not really thought about what this passage really looks like in their own life based upon my three year observations.

So my question to all who read this is; What does this passage of scripture look like in your daily life as a Christian? Please give personal examples from your own experience so that I may learn.


arsenal	I view this more from the spiritual than the physical. It is only with spirit eyes that we see this light neither do we see the cleansing but our spirits believe it is done. This is both grace and faith at work. Now, even though I do believe this gives some justification to "once saved always saved" I do not believe in unconditional salvation. Walking in the light also means being guided by study, prayer and the Holy Spirit.
sobern90	Larry but what does walking in the light really look like in real life?
truthme	for me, this verse ties directly with John 3:19-21 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God." It is the light that makes everything visible. We have an obligation to be open and honest. To let our lives be clearly seen. We have an obligation to be in fellowship- (united for the same cause) and if we would all focus on our own sins, and on growing together, instead of fighting, hiding things, and working against each other, our sins, and their would be forgiven. Matt 6:14-15 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins .
auntjennywren	Thank you for the birthday wishes!
arsenal	The simple answer: The constant desire and effort to improve.
sobern90	The thing I find of high interest concerning this verse is the fact that it is a powerful meaning verse. The simple implications of this verse are powerful and I think missed by today’s Christians. This verse implies looking for ways of doing good to all people. It implies having an attitude of seeking and searching ways to do good to all people. It also implies that when we know to do good and we choose not to do that good then we do not have fellowship and our sin is not covered. A simple example of what this verse says to me: When we are running late for assembly on Sunday morning, it is raining, and we see on the side of the road, old Mary, the town leader for the local chapter of N.O.W., trying to change a tire on her 1956 V.W. bug, with 3 little kids in the back, and we pass on by because we are late to church; is to sin.
	login to comment

hide comments

Assembly Pattern

08-28-08 05:41pm MST

It occurs to me that our assemblies (if we truly must follow the pattern of the 1st century church) might be more horizontal in purposes then we might feel. We are to reach out to each other in them. We are to build each other up in them. We are to encourage each other to love and do good things in them. (See Heb. 10:23-24) We are also to partake of the Lord Supper as a family in them. (See Acts 20:7 and 1 Cor. 11:18 and 1 Cor. 11:33)

So therefore the assembly of the 1st century was as much to build each other up as it is to praise God. Therefore the assemblies probably looked a lot different then they do today.

If Mary’s son or daughter were taken and persecuted for being Christian the church might have mourned that following Sunday with Mary. If John’s son returned from a long journey safely during the prior week the church might have rejoiced that following Sunday.

So this is how the early church might have worshiped together on Sunday: More as a family building each other up and supporting each other and less as 5 acts of worship that were not truly addressed to a collective or commanded as a group in the New Testament.


71lespaulcustom	Yup!
arsenal	I have a problem with the 5 acts myself and calling the assembly a worship service. I've often wondered where the other three acts were in the beginning of Acts 20.
prov3110	Do you think they would have waited until the following Sunday to mourn or rejoice - depending on the circumstance?
tasteslikemonkey	Wow that's a great post! I have thought something very similar lately.
spoons	So then what we usually are doing between class time and "worship" time is really worship? So when the preacher or songleader walks up front and gets everyone to sit down and start the worship service, he/they are really interrupting worship? Is that right?
prov3110	I'm not sure there's any evidence that the SOCIAL aspect of "building each other up" is/was a part of "worship" in the first century. There is a definite line between social activities designed for encouragement and exhortation and worshipping God - where the focus is solely on Him.
sobern90	Heather where in the NT was this "definite line" drawn?
lovinstlouis02	I agree. Sometimes we come together only to sit quietly and worship in silence alone. There's little interaction with each other. An individual could walk in the door and never speak the whole time. Lonely.
prov3110	Good point. Let me think how to rephrase my statement.
	login to comment

hide comments

5 >> 25 >> >>>