pleonast.com: truthme

OK-
I'm sure I'm just missiing something here, so I am going to toss this out to all of you on Pleo who are much smarter than I am.
(Yes, that would be all of you)

(Make believe scenario):
Fred and Wilma Flintstone, move into Bedrock.
They are faithful Christians.
In Bedrock there is one church of faithful Christians, So Fred and Wilma attend there.
They want to be a part of the work.
They want to be involved in its growth.
They love the members, and care for the community.
BUT...
They do not wish to put themselves under the Eldership there.
They believe that the Elders there are not qualified, or maybe they just don't believe in "placing membership"...
(no... whether or not the Elders ARE qualified is not the discussion here....)

So:
In this case,
(Question 1)
What is different for Fred and Wilma, compared to those who HAVE put themselves under the Eldership?
What changes for them?

This question has brought up a lot of thoughts for me.
Hebrews obviously tells us to Obey our leaders and submit to there authority... So,
(Question 2)
Do we disfellowship Fred and Wilma? Do we force them into being under the Elders?
Do we just consider them visitors from now on?... (And if so, what really changes for them?)

And
(Question 3)
If Fred and Wilma can just attend, and be active but not under the Elders... can the rest of us do that?

We have no Biblical example of removing an Elder (unless they are sinning)... so if they are not sinning,
(Question 4)
Can we all just remove ourselves from their eldership, and still worship there?... and if so, what changes? And if not... how do we enforce this?

How about me?
(Question 5)
Let's say I am the evangelist at Bedrock, and I just see the Elders as having no vision, no focus, no... well.. no... ANYTHING!
Can I remove myself from their eldership and still preach there?
Why or why not?.. and do we have verses to show this?

I guess what a lot of this comes down to is:
What are Elders really there for?
And if the Elders are not doing what they should... can we just do as we wish and still worship at that local body?

(Question 6)
What really changes if we ALL choose to consider ourselves just Christains that live in that area, that choose to assemble at that building.. BUT do not "place membership", or set ourselves under those Elders?...
Can we still function, if an Eldership is already in place there?

I am very clear on the fact that a church can function with or without Elders. But when there ARE elders.... What do we do with those who do not put themselves under the authority of that Eldership?
Does anything REALLY change for them?...
And if so, what?.. and WHY?

I'd love to hear some discussion on this-
Maybe I'm just missing some realy obvious things, but I have been wondering about this.


arsenal	I've always lived by the rule that if I can't live with an eldership it is time to move on. The scriptures teach that the two jobs of an eldership is to watch for our souls and feed the flock. So in your questions what you are saying is "I don't want to be watched after nor do I want to be fed". Doesn't sound very Christian-like to me. I would have some difficulty with that attitude.
misssonja	I've seen people do this. In my opinion, there can only be one of two answers: Either an elder/the elders are truly not qualified, in which case he/they should step down (or be removed). Or the person/couple is sinning by failing to submit to the elders, in which case he/they ought to be withdrawn from.
deusvitae	Believing in "placing membership" is irrelevant. God commands the Christians of a local congregation to be accountable to each other (Galatians 6:2, 1 Corinthians 12:12-28), and elders must know who their flock is (Acts 20:28). If they do not want to submit to the elders, there are massive problems here. It does not befit a Christian to be unwilling to submit to others, especially if such people are appropriate shepherds of God's flock. More Americanism for you.
truthme	I certainly agree with all of the above comments- What poses greater difficulty for me is: #1- If the Elders are not really "sinning" But ALSO are not leading at all... do you remove them?.. and if so how? and #2- For the Flintstones here.... what do we do with them? They want to be faithful, but just can not in good conscience submit to Elders that are not leading... So do we disfellowship them?... or let them be eternal visitors? Which raises the question what is the difference between a faithful visitor and a faithful member? Bedrock (and other places) may well have some who live in Bedrock in the Summer and Rubbletown in the winter- Shall they switch membership every 6 months, or just stay a visitor, and does this stop them in any way from participating in the work of the church?
tntitan	This is really sad, Rob. I don't envy the CABR. If the Flintstones truly disagree with the congregation that their elders are properly qualified, then their continued presence is not "wanting to be a part of the work, wanting to be involved in its growth, loving the members, or caring for the community" - it is undermining the leadership and sowing seeds of discord among the membership. If they believe the church to be in error by setting over itself unqualified men, then they should humbly make it known to the congregation and move on. How can they "in good conscience" associate with Christians who submit themselves to "unqualified" elders? It sounds like their conscience is quite inconsistent in what it allows. So what do you do with them? I suppose you treat them like you would any other unfaithful visitors. You welcome them to a certain extent while encouraging them to do what's right. Sooner or later, they will probably either do what's right or get tired of being told they are wrong. Isn't that what happens with most visitors?
tommygirl	It's really hard to define "unqualified". I suppose it's one of those "know it when I see it" things. Maybe they start their own work? The problem with saying they should move on is that it's not possible. There is only one church there (I've in the past been in that situation). It's not feasible for the most part for people in this situation to move to find another church. Perhaps the first step is to discuss their concerns with the elders and study with them? Maybe they already have...
tommygirl	I don't think they can be eternal visitors. I don't think that exists. Apparently they are very vocal about their opposition? What is truly involved with them "not submitting"? Perhaps they should pick up the slack they perceive in the work and set an example? Or are they sitting on their hands while complaining about others?
truthme	Well... I'm trying to keep this "make believe" so I can not answer any specific questions. But again, it seems like a real lose/lose. (Lets say the Elders are not "Sinning" but they have three problems, #1 they are not doing much- #2 what they do... they suck at, and often cause more problems than solutions- and #3 they refuse to support anyone else in doing things that are effective, because it is the ELDERS job to lead the flock.) If someone truly disagrees in conscience with this Eldership, we have no way to remove the Elders. But they also can not submit to them, as they feel it is destructive to the church. The person also can not start a new work, which is definitely going to cause some division / strife in little bedrock, And they can't really try to go worship a town or two over with "Mr. Slayde" because that congregation is like an hour away, and worshipping so far from home will hurt their personal ministry in seeking and saving those in their own neighborhood. (not to mention making assembling much more difficult). It seems odd to disfellowship Fred and Wilma, who want to be faithful, and want to be active... they just can not in good conscience put themselves under the eldership. Fred and Wilma do NOT want to cause more drama.... but it is almost as if we are saying "Either cause the drama and confront this, or else leave". Can they not just pursue what they believe God is calling them to in their personal ministry? Or do they have to put it on hold until they can convince the Elders to get on board?
tommygirl	It sounds like they are lording it over and don't understand their role. To me there is a difference between not submitting to eldership and what you seem to be describing. Unless the elders are saying Fred and Wilma are sinning in what they are pursuing, I don't see why they can't.
tommygirl	And if Fred is the preacher? The elders will most likely oust him at some point, we see that all the time.
tommygirl	"Bedrock (and other places) may well have some who live in Bedrock in the Summer and Rubbletown in the winter- Shall they switch membership every 6 months, or just stay a visitor, and does this stop them in any way from participating in the work of the church?" This would be an interesting discussion. 'Visiting" somewhere for 6 months doesn't exempt you from working. Nor are you an independent. It's really not about membership.
ckennow	3 John 1 The elder unto Gaius the beloved, whom I love in truth. 2 Beloved, I pray that in all things thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth. 3 For I rejoiced greatly, when brethren came and bare witness unto thy truth, even as thou walkest in truth. 4 Greater joy have I none than this, to hear of my children walking in the truth. 5 Beloved, thou doest a faithful work in whatsoever thou doest toward them that are brethren and strangers withal; 6 who bare witness to thy love before the church: whom thou wilt do well to set forward on their journey worthily of God: 7 because that for the sake of the Name they went forth, taking nothing of the Gentiles. 8 We therefore ought to welcome such, that we may be fellow-workers for the truth. 9 I wrote somewhat unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. 10 Therefore, if I come, I will bring to remembrance his works which he doeth, prating against us with wicked words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and them that would he forbiddeth and casteth [them] out of the church. 11 Beloved, imitate not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: he that doeth evil hath not seen God. 12 Demetrius hath the witness of all [men], and of the truth itself: yea, we also bear witness: and thou knowest that our witness is true. 13 I had many things to write unto thee, but I am unwilling to write [them] to thee with ink and pen: 14 but I hope shortly to see thee, and we shall speak face to face. Peace [be] unto thee. The friends salute thee. Salute the friends by name. Esp. v. 9-10
misssonja	Rob, the thing is that elders are instructed to lead; if they are not leading, then they are sinning. That problem needs to be respectfully addressed with these men. The Flintstones misapprehend who is responsible for what -- they have taken it upon themselves to answer for the elders capability/performance. -- The elders are accountable to God (not to the Flintstones). -- The Flintstones will answer to God, too, but *not for what the elders are/aren't doing*; they are accountable for submitting and serving. They cannot pretend to please/serve God while rejecting the very authority God ordained and established. (Honestly, if they are doing personal ministry and a new believer is born, are they going to say, "Come and worship with me here at this congregation that I feel so badly about I can't place membership?" Ugh!) If the local congregation is truly organized/operating unfaithfully, then they need to drive an hour or start a faithful work.
ambiguous_username	Hmmm...that does seem rather extreme considering the men themselves were wearing shirts. I could understand were it the other way around....
ambiguous_username	Actually, wait. Nevermind. You said it was all men anyhow. So, it makes even less sense now :-P
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Dead trees:

08-09-08 03:52pm EST

I am still bothered by the articles and research that has shown that the church of Christ has shrunk by 58% in the last 30 years, while population has grown by 42%.
I am heartbroken by the fact that we have lost ONE THIRD of our congregations in that time- nearly 6,000 churches.

And I have almost become violently ill when I have shared this with some in the church who have responded with:
Well, “Narrow is the road and few find it!”
Or “Well, “The Bible says there must be divisions to show which of us has God’s approval”.

I want us to think a bit about this verse:
Matt 7:17-20
Every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

We have born bad fruit!
And to be honest, we are cutting down our own tree!

We have fought, and complained, and neglected, and debated our way into blind, self-righteous, extinction.

I must say I am truly jealous of some of you.
You tell me of your church (yes, church of Christ) and say how it uplifts you.
You mention how you are being trained and encouraged, and built up in love.
It gives me hope…. But it also makes me jealous- it makes me long for that in a way you long for something you hardly can believe you will ever have.

I had it for about 18 years in my faith, and churches grew and were powerful...
I see it with the brethren in India (yes.. please help them financially… they are in such need) but now… for me…. It seems to be just a memory.

Even with our church nearly tripling in the last 3 years… the passion, the excitement is not there.
Building the church is WORK. (usually in the form of fighting brethren to be able to do ANYTING that will bring growth)
And as I look around I constantly have to wonder what type of trees we are growing.

What I see is sad.
I see our youth leaving.
Not because they do NOT want to love God… but because they DO want to love God.
We give them what they hate- rules, authority, and doctrine, which is really very good, and should cause them to have life- But Life…. We give them none of that.

And then we shy away from the things THEY really desire- but WE fear!
Accountability, relationships, honest communication, and open confession.

So they go off to other groups, or leave completely.
NOT because they do not want to love God, but because they do.
They want to serve others.
They want to be involved in a community.
They want to live for a purpose, and have passion.
They want this message of hope to make a difference- for them and for others.

So they go off and tolerate a lack of truth- (usually on baptism, and on forms of worship) because they just do not want to hold in this faith any longer.
And what do we do?
We correct them.
We debate the truth.
We smirk and say- “OH the foolish youth!”

Do we not realize that if we would get off OUR dead butts and live this…
If we would embrace them and treat them as family…
If we would give OUR lives to those around us…
We would not only have them back… but we would have more besides!

We are the ones that have put a stumbling block on their path, because we have been “bumps on logs”
They trip over our lack of action.
They trip over our lack of love,
And over our lack of life.
Mark 9:42
If anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin,
it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck

Our dead weight is making us and them sink to the bottom.

I’m all for truth- without it none of us have hope.
But the truth is-
This is the first and greatest commandment:
"'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Until we learn to watch our life and doctrine closely-
And not just our doctrine-
We will be dead trees with a very very healthy root system.

But no flowers.
No leaves…
And no fruit.


ninja_penguin	Good thoughts.
jarrod	Ten thousand amens!
SaraJones	Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
SaraJones	Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
arsenal	There is another side to this story. Loss of members is not confined to the c of C. The denominations have suffered the same fate. I agree that the GREAT DIVIDE over the institutions took its toll in the 60s but three is another culprit, PROSPERITY. An extra buck in the pocket and who needs God. Notice that the Gospel seems to do much better among the poor nations. We need to be careful here as God may take those "extra bucks" away from us.
jeepinskeeter	Now, for the other side of the same coin. I grew up in the traditional coC without even knowing that there is another, better way. I was kicked out of a traditional coC--extremely traditional and equally dead, as you have described above--several years ago, because my spirit was straining to grow and outgrow the little spiritual box the elders needed me to stay confined to. BUT! There is a strong desire among the young people for a spiritual revolution, and THEY ARE MAKING IT HAPPEN! I have spent this weekend at a house with more than 100 other people. They call it "Recharge". It is meant especially for young people, but everyone is welcome. People drive from miles and miles to be there, to sing together and listen to deeply spiritual lessons brought by men who are the most spiritually-minded preachers I've ever met. Although some of their weekends are fun-oriented, all have an unmistakably spiritual bent. This particular one is hours and hours of Bible study, and the kids in attendance are obviously there because they hunger and thirst after righteousness. The church is not dead. I am excited and honored to witness and be a part of (in a supporting role) a spiritual revolution that appears to unite the truths of traditional coC doctrine with the love of God and others demonstrated by liberal and denominational groups. If you could come to one of the monthly singings and Psalm studies, or to one of the other events that they plan, you would be a witness to an exciting new era of the church. It would do great things for your downtrodden heart to see into the faces and hearts of young people who love the Lord and each other and who are striving to diligently seek God first in their lives. You are welcome to stay in our home, anytime!
truthme	I want more info: Maybe we can get you all to come "re-charge" US. I'd gladly pay for the expenses out of my own pocket.... they can consider it a "Recharge mission trip"
dave_beltz	this was such a good post
misssonja	Appreciate these thoughts, Rob.
daughterofgod	Good thoughts. You know I've never thought of it as the kids want to grow, so they leave because the adults aren't helping them grow. What I've usually witnessed (and has caused my general dislike for people my own age) is a lack of real life application. I've seen "Chrisitan" children be so mean, so hateful, and so oblivious to actually putting God's love in their lives. My first year I loved the FC camp I went to, we were in a small cabin and were a very tight nit group. The second year though, I was miserable. It might have had something to do that I spent a lot of spare time either sleeping or with my fiance, but when I was with the other girls, for the most part, I was discouraged. Their interests were different than mine on so many levels, and I was practically burned at the stake when I said that Christians should really only date other Christians, and for some other comment (I think someone had said something about "You can't ever know who is really going to be saved" and I said, "Yes you can. Jesus said 'No one comes to the father but through me'" )
aaronw	I feel for you, Rob. I want what you want.
ambiguous_username	Yes, the (r)ants. Very nice observation.
ambiguous_username	And, now that I have read it, this post is a very nice observation as well. Although, I should probably say "unfortunately truthful" observation as opposed to "nice".
deputyheadmistress	I was also at Recharge weekend with my brood. It's everything she said and then some.
just2seeusmile	Next time I'm in North Carolina I'll be visiting you FIRST! :hugs:
aaronw	Hilarious! I did not know there was such a thing as Godtube.
tryphena	Thank you! That verse sums up my life, but I would add, "by the grace of God".
jkmram	Thank you... please do not allow me to continue to tempt you, feel free to swipe the photos for your personal use with full permission. (grin) Good thoughts, above. It is an area that often needs work.
imarushbabe	Don't know you...wonderful post!
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More news from India.

07-12-08 01:10pm EST

Hi All-

I am back from up north where the frozen custard flows like wine, and the aroma of Bratwurst fills the air like incense wafting up from the altar.
While I was there I got an great e-mail from India.
Brother Chandrakanth is doing great work there training the evangelists, and preaching in the tribal areas.

So far he has let me know of over 18 baptisms in the past month.

Be praying for these people though-
The homes of many of them are no more than dirt huts... many of which have been destroyed. You have sisters in Christ, that due to their claiming Jesus as Lord, have been fired from their jobs and excommunicated from their villages. Now they live in tents, and out in the open on the side of the roads, and worship under a tree.
Yet these people are so very faithful.

There is a family there with an 18 year old daughter who has a virus, and is expected to die. Simple medication could heal her, yet there is so little hope of help that the people are afraid even to ask for any.
They do not want to take advantage of us. They are so grateful for what we have done, they feel asking for more would offend.

I am shocked by this.
Would ANY of us be offended by the opportunity to help a sister in Christ live? Would any of us refuse her a healthy life for the $18.00 it would cost us?
I have sent funds to help our sister in Christ.
My hope is that we in the United States can open up the floodgates of blessing for them, and show them truly that we are family here, and we share their concerns.

Later this month we are sending a few more evangelists from the States out to India to continue to witness first hand the needs there, and help to train people and build up the work.

Pray for these people.
They truly do need your encouragement.
I am so happy that God has allowed me to start India Missions to make such a huge difference there.
Thank you so much to all of you who have sent funds. The impact they make is more than you can imagine.

2 Cor 8:13-14
Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality . At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. Then there will be equality

Praise God for our ability to help people on the other side of the world so easily, and so effectively.


aaronw	Send me some info. awhaley1@gmail.com
j_a_c_o_b	May God be merciful on our faithful Indian brothers and sisters. They put us to shame.
joe	If you post pictures of your trip please let us all know!
truthme	I am far too ignorant to know how to post a picture. LOL
SaraJones	Please send me information on how we (my family and church) can get involved with this! Nathanandsarajones at g mail dot com
kevin	Of course, the NL blew it again.
slave_of_jesus_jdb	Hey bro, I love you deeply and feel the same way you do. I believe your heart is true and I don't question your heart or your intelligence. I'm enjoying the discussion, too.
aaronw	Thanks for the pictures.
joe	LOL thanks! :)
71lespaulcustom	Should we on Pleo be called "Kennonites" then?!
kevin	I saw them on the Acappella website but I haven't heard them before. I need to check them out. Keith Lancaster, the guy who writes a lot of their songs and "manages" all the groups (Vocal Union, Durant, and Acappella) worships with a group here in Knoxville. It is the Farragut coC (considered "liberal" by many). My brother went to a special service where Acappella led the worship. He said that even though it was a "concert/performance" they made it known that they were not there for show. What they were doing was to glorify God and encouraged everyone to sing with them. He said it was very moving. I hope to go next time.
aaronw	I was wondering.. Can I get a "Bro Rob" banner for my apartment? :)
aaronw	I have a pretty big noggin, too :)
whatsyourconfession	Rob, go to my weblog and on my links you can order cell chips. I kind of think its too late for you. I mean the alien invading your brains thing.
whatsyourconfession	:)
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My Dad's passing

06-17-08 12:28pm EST

I got a call this morning to let me know that my Dad had passed away. He was not a Christian, and I am asked to do the funeral.
Pray I know the "right" things to say.

Also pray for my Mom. After 54 years of marriage. (would have been 55 in August) her entire life was him. This is going to be really hard on Mom.
Pray that this event draws my family to God.
None of them are Christians at this time.

On a brighter note...
THANK YOU so much to those who have took an interest in India Missions, and the one family that sent money. Your funds will be used to support one of the evangelists there.

Keep India in your prayers as well, they are doing an amazing work and can certainly use some financial support and prayer support.

Thanks Guys!....


	(8 older comments)
SaraJones	Blessings on you. May the Spirit fill you with words of comfort, peace and love. I am so sorry for your loss.
cruisingmom	You and your family are in my prayers.
tntitan	What a tough position to be in! Make the most of it, brother. May God grant you wisdom.
navydoc	I'm very sorry for your loss brother. You and your family are in my prayers.
whatsyourconfession	I'm sorry.
biblestudies1	Hey Rob -- Thanks for calling right away and letting me know about your dad. I know how hard this must be for you. I think your dad was probably very proud of how much good you've been able to do for people throughout your life. Just want to thank you again for the help that you've given me. God works for the good in all circumstances for those who love him, and I hope very much that these present difficulties will open up some real doors for the rest of your family. Love you.
biblestudies1	By the way, I've been able work first-hand with Chandu and have been helping both directly and indirectly with the work the work Rob is mentioning in India for several years now. They really need people to help with this. If you are even thinking about helping with this, please get the information from Rob (he has more documentation -- pictures, emails, letters than you can imagine). 100% of everything collected goes directly to support the preachers, widows, and orphans working and living in Warangal,India. These are real Christians and the poverty level they are working under is just staggering. If you get the information, most of you would help out in a second... please find out more about this.
thehoops	sorry to hear that news
slave_of_jesus_jdb	You've got my prayers.
grizzlytwelve	Hang in there Rob. I will be thinking of you and your family.
jarrod	Hey Rob, just had a little something I wanted to share with you real fast. This morning I was reading the 119th Psalm. Every time I read it, another verse stands out and really speaks to me. This time it was verse 28. When I got there I remembered your loss and how heavy your heart must be at this time. Now I said that to say this: please take some time soon to read and meditate on Psalm 119. Let the word of the Lord speak to you and comfort you at this time. Grace and peace to you and yours.
ckennow	Wow sorry to hear about your Dad. I don't know what I'd do if my Dad died. And he may die young. He has all kinds of health problems. May God bless you and keep you. I will pray for you and your family.
ed	I"m be praying for you and the family. on a side note, I'm going to try and contact the group there in India, we may try to make a trip there in the next year or so and would love to meet with them. love you brother!!
kevin	FYI, he is not really a pastor. He is from Knoxville where I live but is currently living in Auburn, AL. He is only 23 and works for UPS. I did see this sign however on a church here in Knoxville and HAD to take a picture of it. Priceless :)
ckennow	Are you in town? will we see you Sunday? If so make sure you let me know who you are so we can hang out! Can't wait!
ckennow	:(
ambiguous_username	Rob, I just noticed I never made a comment here, but I have been praying for you.
ironic	I am really sorry to hear about your dad. :( You'll be in my prayers.
ironic	Btw, wow... you really did come to my RR didn't you? A few days ago, they told me that a guy had come in asking for me and said he knew my dad was a preacher. I was wracking my mind as to who it mightave been, and then I re-read your comment today, which made the "light" go on in my head. lol Sorry I missed you! :)
kevin	Her has information about getting the issue of "Biblical Insights" that you were referring to on his blog. Happy reading... :(
aaronw	Friend, how are you doing?
jenlew21	We're staying with some folks right now, but once we get our own place and get settled in feel free to come and visit! :)
aaronw	The summer of Aaron is over :) I started work yesterday.
nontradish	Thank you so much for voting for my son. I read your entry again, I hope your mom is doing well.
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New sister!

06-12-08 02:24am EST

Tonight at 11:30 Lisa was baptized into Christ.
It is so great to see the huge impact that the lives of our new Christians are making on their friends.
Lisa has made amazing life changes over the past 4 weeks.

Praise God that he allows us to not only see his power, but be a part of it.

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