It was incredible. I wish people like this got more respect, recognition and reward for their talent, instead of no-talent groups and singers whose talent only exists within the confines a sound engineer's wizardry.
A short break before some closing comments on the previous discussion; however, the subject matter is still musical instruments!
I set a personal record in guitar acquisition over the past 30 days: three guitars for a total out-of-pocket cost of under $57. Okay, one was free from a brother at church. The other two were purchased at costs way below what they are worth, and bought with the help of gift certificates and birthday money.
Note: Anyone else who wants to give their guitars away to a good home... I'm your man. Seriously. Anything with strings. Well, not giving them to me with strings attached. I mean, don't take the strings off, just don't expect them back or for me to do something crazy as a condition.
Tomorrow there will be a party after Bible class. Skip, Hanlon, Josh and I are having a fret-pulling party, as we each transform one of our guitars into a fretless instrument. The notion is both exciting and terrifying.
I laughed out loud today when I saw the announcement of the Google Tablet, especially right on the heels of Apple's iPad announcement. I am no fan of Mac's nor of the iPhone's deployment strategy (lock users and app developers out of the device unless the go through Apple's store and pay a toll along the way). I see Google taking a chunk of Apple's market share over the next few years.
Josh just came back from running. He was listening to some Rap "music" and wanted to share it with me. Trying to have an open mind, I listened to it. I liked it. This is not your typical rapping -- this is Christian rap. Go ahead. Listen to it. The words are even included.
So, what's new with you?
-- Steve
I'm giving that a listen. I actually like it. Never been really big on rap, but it's well done. And how do you find all these awesome guitars? Awesome = cheap/free?
Sorry, Steve, my 2 Rickenbackers stay, tough stringing and all. Have always wanted to get rid of 40 year old my Japan made Epiphone but its the only guitar I have that I can play without plugging into an amp first.
Used to work with a guy who was a Mosrite collector. Never understood that but as I keep coming back to, many wonder why my fasination with Rics and S&W handguns.
so a fretless guitar has a whole new sound (?), I imagine (because you can play it differently, or slide your fingers up and down?
I'm trying to figure it out.
For years I have heard people talk about the unauthorized / sinful use of musical instruments "in worship". Recently someone referred to the book Instrumental Music in the Worship (1911) by M.C. Kurfees as an authoritative work on the subject -- proving instrumental music is unscriptural.
Having found the text to this book on-line (seems to be scanned / OCR'd with several typos) and I have read the first few chapters.
In the beginning, Kurfees cites 17 different commentaries' definitions of the Greek psallo / psalmos (see link below to read the chapter):
Afterwards, Kurfees distills these 17 definitions into what he calls "five separate and distinct meanings of psallo":
(1) To pluck the hair.
(2) To twang the bowstring.
(3) To twitch a carpenter's line.
(4) To touch the chords of a musical instrument, that is, to make instrumental music. (5) To touch the chords of the human heart, that is, to sing, to celebrate with hymns of praise.
Someone please help me. Where in these 17 citations is anything remotely akin to the author's point #5 (the postulate on which his whole argument is based)??
yes, i would argue that (in your hypothetical). when has an example ever been anything more than a good way to do something? an example by itself is hardly ever the worst way to do something, but it's also rarely the only way to do something. and as for your position on definitions: what good is a command if you don't know what is being commanded? the definition is integral.
Ephesians 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody(psallo) in your heart to the Lord;
I guess we could read this as "singing and singing in your heart to the Lord"?????????????
If going with the conservative view of this, then we should only sing to ourselves and only melody---so don't let anyone catch you singing harmonies!! ;)
^^^Good point. The point is often made that instruments are distracting. When a new song is introduced in the "main" assembly aren't most of us "distracted" while we learn the melody/harmony?
I would suggest a different translation of Eph 5:19, "Speaking to one another . . ." which really fits the purpose of teaching. And even though some of my favorite songs are those with three and four parts merging together (God is Love, for example), could a visitor in our audience learn anything? Isn't it really just a really great sounding joyful noise unless you read the lyrics?
And going one step further, when we sing a "camp" song that everyone supposedly knows, how do our visitors feel? Having been in that position, sometimes with my spiritual family here, you don't get much out of it.
^^^That's why I prefer music/lyrics on paper or even up on the screen (as long as notes are there too). It's very uncomfortable to feel "out of place" and not even have a chance to sing along if we don't know the song. I'm afraid that happens to visitors more than we realize - especially when told by the song leader to put the books down. Then the visitors who doesn't know the song by heart is put on the spot by having to hold the book...oops - sorry hit a nerve of mine! LOL!
I enjoy the 'camp songs.' Our children love it! I'm pretty sure the book police won't come around, if you have your songbook opened, and ask you to put it away. Typically, the 'camp songs' aren't all that complicated, so that people can catch on pretty quickly. I would bet most of our guests already know the songs. Just my thoughts. I have ZERO complaints about the singing at GSR.
As a side...I would much rather sing w/o the instruments...the timing just never feels right!
I would rather sing w/o instruments too - I've been places where there was a piano or organ and the instruments overpowered the singers. I don't have a problem with camp songs, just too many versions trying to be sung at the same time (as in several different descants)
Honestly, one of my biggest questions about the traditional non-instrumental view is in the NT's lack of attention to the subject.
I feel like there were other issues with the Jews and Greeks bringing pieces of their former lives into their faith so why not address instrumental music in worship.
Did all new converts just know to stop using the instruments that they had been using for centuries? I find that unlikely.
So why not tell them to stop? If circumcision to meat sacrificed to idols were an issue, why not insturmental worship?
I feel comfortable with accapella singing and I'm not advocating our body doing anything else.
But I am fearful of drawing lines that God himself hasn't drawn.
"Where there is no law there is no transgression of law." seems to apply.
^^^^A good point. Why are so many of the issues in our brotherhood today not issues in the 1st Century? A side note: D and R was every bit the problem then as it is now yet we do not see 1st Century brethren fighting and dividing over it. A question: Do we sometimes mold truth to fit our doctrine instead of molding our doctrine to fit truth?
Okay, Steve, I read the 17 def'ns and the following paragraph. I see where he decided to change the definition of "celebrate..." to "touch the chords of the human heart". I gotta admit, no matter which side(s) of the debate you are on, this seems to be a bit of a reach. I found Keith's and Ray's comments to be more logical. I can't help but notice the lack of comment in the NT. I remember reading of musical instruction in the Psalms and of David playing for King Saul and the specific instructions God gave about playing instruments in the temple. And yes, we sometimes mold truth to fit our opinions. We do it today, they did it then, and future generations will also until He comes.
I came here from Mrs. Hasting's page. Good post, good comments. :-) To answer your original question, I would have to say that Kurfees' conclusion in #5 is not a logical one. Based on the 17 lexicon definitions given, I certainly see that you could conclude that -singing- is a possible definition... most have at least one part that mentions singing. But even then, many of them imply or outright state that the singing should be accompanied by a stringed instrument. I would be satisfied with his conclusion if he simply said that singing is a part of "psallo." I believe that for him to make the leap that the word "psallo" explicitly means "To touch the chords of the human heart" is, again, illogical. He's making a point to do a technical word study and yet makes a completely non-technical leap, which may even go so far as to be taking advantage of the true definitions in order to make his view match up with the definitions. In fact, his poor logic has made him lose significant credibility in my eyes.
So, my short answer is this: I have no idea how his postulation is based at all in the definitions that he listed.
Topically, I believe that we make a bigger issue out of this than it should be. I agree with Serena, who, contrary to Kurfees, seems to be using sound logic. :-) I do not believe that God has clearly drawn this line, and therefore I would never assume to draw it myself. I may be setting myself up for (further) trouble by being this forthright, but I would not have a problem worshipping somewhere with instruments. As a few have said before, I don't prefer it, but I would do it. And, quite frankly, I don't believe this issue is a matter of salvation.
By the way, I was skimming through some of the other chapters in Kurfees' book and found this quote: "The religious guides of the early Christians felt that there would be an incongruity, and even profanity, in the use of the sensuous nerve-exciting effects of instrumental sound in their mystical, spiritual worship. Their high religious and moral enthusiasm needed no aid from external stimulus; the pure vocal utterance was the more proper expression of their faith.--Music in the History of the Western Church, pp. 54-55." It's interesting to note that some "early Christians" decided that instruments were dangerous because of the "sensuous nerve-exciting effects." I'm going to bookmark Kurfees' book and keep reading, but my immediate reaction to that quote is that of course it is historically clear that many (most?) early Christians didn't use instruments... but why? Because THEY decided that it was dangerous? Or because it was clear to them that God did not want it? I don't know. But I'll keep reading and studying.
Steve, at the risk of being hammered, I'm going to make one final point. Brethren make the agrument that the reason they oppose instrumental music is because there is no record of it in the NT. Agreed. Why is the same argument not used as to no record of NT congregations buying and selling property for church buildings?
The building's electrical system will not allow sufficient voltage for the number of students. You'll just have to use that method at home to force him to learn (or take the keys).
Sometimes I find myself counting my footsteps. Not even purposely, it just kinda happens. My right foot is always odd and my left foot is always even. And I always notice when a particular path (stairways, sidewalks, etc) ends with a "special" number like 7, 13, 21, 23, 57, etc.
Too much math to watch tv. Though, I will admit that I have an affinity for numbers who happen to be multiples of 4. I LOVE 4. Birthdate: 8/4/80...coincidence?
and I do the same that ambiguous does, except my left foot is always one or three, my right is always two or four, and I HAVE to end on an even number!
My alarm clock can't be set on even numbers, or numbers divisible by five, or anything that repeats itself (7:11, 6:33, not good). 7:17 and numbers like that are ok, but not preferred.
I too always do things left to right and clockwise. I MUST eat my food one item at a time (i can't take a bite of this and then that). I don't like my food touching or juices melding. We seriously own cafeteria trays (thanks MIL). The order I eat my food is this: entree first (it is what you're paying for after all when you eat out), followed by all the vegetables (one at a time, but 2nd so they are eaten before I get full), then the starch (potato, rice, etc.) (since I love them so much, it's like dessert...but if I get full, I don't "need" them anyway), followed by dessert if there is any. Oh and if there is a roll or a biscuit involved, that is bumped to the #1 spot.
I feel compelled to read the license plate on the car in front of me when driving. Doesn't matter if it's not a personalized tag, although those do make for more interesting reading. This has nothing to do with math, but it does involve numbers :)
Cops who wear blue uniforms learn the powdered sugar donut lesson early. Then there is the cream filled that spirts the cream out the back end at the first bite. Be safe, stick with glazed.
LOL...hard to hid THAT transgression! Same with white napkins at most restaurants. Let's see...black napkins, might be dirty; white napkins, wear the rest of the day. I hear you, brother.
Have a totally rockin' time dude :) xoxoxo
Very cool! Out Standing In Their Field = some really good guitar
You are going to have a blast!!!
He will be at a nearby Indian casino soon. Enjoy!!
Rock on.
pretty.
Please tell me that you're going to grow your hair out and start dressing like that :)
take your camera!
Yeah, there's a lot of sad excuses for music getting "music awards" these days.
Thanks Steve. I was able to meet my fiance's good friend Julie Hulsey last weekend. She said good things about you. :)
Which Church in BG were you referring to? You always spark an interest.
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Pleo Birthday score
